Curse

fenix · Jul 12, 2009, 07:26 AM // 07:26

Merged these two threads, they're basically the same topic anyway.

Show Some Skin · Jul 12, 2009, 07:30 AM // 07:30

I wonder if GW2 will be different for the people that wanna HA with no rank...most of the "high rankers" will all be in same guild/know each other/and group up (if they still play). So that would leave rank discrimination kinda...

rho · Jul 12, 2009, 07:58 AM // 07:58

I'm mostly a PvE player, but have some experience with PvP (eg, I'm R3 from playing in balanced groups), and the thing that would do the most to get me to PvP more would be the ability to play against people of my own ability. Going into AB and steamrolling a bunch of people with no PvP experience gets old fast. Going into high end PvP and getting my rear end handed to me on a platter by people who are way better at PvP than I am also gets old fast. The biggest attraction of PvP for me is playing against people of roughly my own skill level, where I don't know whether I'm going to win or not, and if I do win, it actually feels like an achievement.

There should be something like TA -- low end but structured PvP -- which has rank matching. Getting 4 people together for TA is way easier than getting 8 people together for GvG, but TA is a lottery as to who you'll be up against. The odds of coming up against another team at the same level as you are is fairly small. RA is even worse, since you have the same problems with people on your own team as well, not to mention sync joiners.

Professor K · Jul 12, 2009, 08:32 AM // 08:32

It will be hilarious to see the same elitists on GW2 thinking they are better than everyone else on day one!

"Must have r8+ in GW1 to join"

dunky_g · Jul 12, 2009, 08:51 AM // 08:51

Maybe they should buff Ursan, and allow it in PVP, so everyone runs UrsanWay, and then all the PvE's could play...

lutz · Jul 12, 2009, 08:59 AM // 08:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Charlotte the Harlot

Forming a group/guild needs to be easier for the high end pvp getting 8 competent players of about the same skill level is hard enough and then getting them to play regularly at set times is harder, then keeping the guild together after one loss against other well established guilds is pretty hard, especially for a guild of fairly inexperienced gvgers.

Some things that could be done
1. lower the team size so that forming a stable team with real life friends or a few good internet friends is more realistic (5-6 seems good).
2. Perhaps some form of PUG gvg seperate from ranked gvg so that people can learn the game with out going through the hassle of forming/finding a guild.
3. In game voice chat, basically every team needs vent to be competitive, this would be especially important for pugs.
4. Although not as important for gvg in HA TA and any other pug formats being able to post templates in party search and increasing the party search limit would go a long way towards speeding up the process.

More actualy interaction between pvp and pve is needed as well as is there is no reason for a pver to do pvp. The HoH affecting favor was a cool idea but ultimately was a fairly intangible form of interaction for most pve players and it was too easy to just let someone else handle getting favor for you. Exclusive pvp items that a decent (not godly) pvper could obtain would be cool and just generally more incentive to pvp. As is the only incentive is really the title; hero and glad have been disregarded as worthless and champion is impossibly hard for most people. I like the idea of every match giving champ points and the amount you get scaling with the rating/rank of your guild and your opponent. Lastly if there is a way to obtain the same reward from both pve and pvp the pvp version needs to be more proffitable (assuming you win). The perfect example is AB where you gain absymally low lux/kurz in comparison to pve, pvp is harder and should give just rewards otherwise there is no incentive.

To sum up what I think the main problems are, no incentive to pvp and if you do decide to try pvp learning the game and forming the group is far too much work for a video game.

This is where your PvE friends come in. See, in PvE, you were supposed to get to know at least 8 people in that 100-man-guild of yours... and then make the journey to PvP.

People keep thinking that moving to PvP means leaving your PvE friends forever, when in fact, it's quite the opposite... you're supposed to start PvP with people you already know.

Jensy · Jul 12, 2009, 09:20 AM // 09:20

Yeaaaaaah, because we all run ursan/perma/easy button (lol no).

Some of us do pay attention to obs/read forums/follow discussion and have an idea of what skills to run. We may not (yet) be able to correctly make all 32/64 of those skills work seamlessly together, and have the team coordination to do so, but we're not running in with subpar skillbars :/

zwei2stein · Jul 12, 2009, 11:53 AM // 11:53

1) Skill based gameplay.

In every single gameplay format, each team member matters. Each sub-performing teamamte is liability.

This is true even in low end/fun formats.

Even in RA/AB you want to be good enough so that people would not thing/say "I wish we got someone else as our (4) instead."

There is simply no place for "he sucks, but hey, its another warm body at our side."

I have quite realistic preception of my skills. Being well versed in mechanics and knowing what wins does not equal being to able play that way ('my melee ai is bad'), besides, my ping is at 500ms range most of the time and my connection has some issues that which means that i can not reconnect after DC most of the time. I just do not enjoy sucking, and hence have no reason to dabble into PvP where it is guaranteed for me.

2) Time

As said, to get anywhere in PvP you have to play gw-space. That takes much more time than anyone with casual tendencies has.

And once you get anywhere near interesting people and even in guild you want to be able to be online regulary and able to team with people. And you just can not leave in middle of match.

In PvE having a 'phone-guy' in team sucks, but people can cope with it if they know you because it just means mission takes a bit longer and they can spend that time with bathroom break or socializing. In PvP, its lost match and 7 people that are not likely to be very undestanding becuase they just got beaten at not fault of theirs.

It always felt i would have to be online on schedulle for any more serious PvP, and i despise having to organize my life according to game.

3) Rage.

If I actually participate, and get yelled at ... yep, they usually have a point or at least a reason. I can learn something from it and maybe not repeat that mistake next time. Or learn who is asshole.

But I do not enjoy being yelled at (who does?). And I avoiding that is as simple as *not* playing PvP ... well, I am sold.

4) Reason

There is just no reason to PvP for me anyway.

I don't care about PvP titles, holding halls or winning tournaments. Sure, it sounds cool. But changes of being that "THE Guy" who gets to experience it are slim enough to not bother.

There are goodie rewards for PvE to fuel some titles (y.a.w.n.) or plain gold (y.a.-freaking-w.n.)

I do like the action, but I can get that in nerfed version as PvE slaughterfest or just watch it in observer mode (which sucks without comentaries, <3 SarbeWolf for his videos).

To me, because of point 1 to 3, participation in PvP does not increase amount of fun. It might increase stress levels thou.

And if PvP is not fun for me ... why should i want to go ther and care about big divide.

Understand this:

PvE -> PvP transition is good for game as whole and for PvP players because it brings in new blood that they desperatelly need. But its benefits for PvE player himself are lacking and not really much of incentive unless he can find his own fun in PvP.

And MMO players are bad at finding "their own fun" unless there is yellow exclamation mark above it's head.

Draikin · Jul 12, 2009, 11:56 AM // 11:56

Hero Battles was supposed to be a bridge between PvE and PvP, it's essentially a 1v1 format so it's easy to enter, it has a ladder system so you know whether or not you're actually making any progress and you're matched against players with an similar skill level. Unfortunately the format suffers from so many problems that it never accomplished what it was supposed to do and so far Anet never invested time into trying to fix those problems.

Nerel · Jul 12, 2009, 12:10 PM // 12:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by dunky_g

Maybe they should buff Ursan, and allow it in PVP, so everyone runs UrsanWay, and then all the PvE's could play...

Really not needed, as has been mentioned in this thread, that's just the sort of attitude that leads people to think so poorly of PvP'ers, and is in no way constructive.

Quote:

Originally Posted by zwei2stein

PvE -> PvP transition is good for game as whole and for PvP players because it brings in new blood that they desperatelly need. But its benefits for PvE player himself are lacking and not really much of incentive unless he can find his own fun in PvP.

Zwei2stein, I get the fun point, and some players just don't find GW PvP to be fun, and that's cool, they don't have to play if they don't want to... but what would make GW's PvP rewarding FOR YOU? A friendly, less abusive environment? Or are you looking for more substantial rewards? Faster title progress? Better loot/income from PvP?

Bristlebane · Jul 12, 2009, 02:10 PM // 14:10

Please tell me when
(A) PvP is enjoyable and fun to play, and not so bloody serious.
(B) When there's no rank discriminations.
(C) No abuse of dishonorable because you happened to disrupt someone's RA sync.

Then we can start to find ways of getting more PvE players into PvP.
After all it's a game, not work.

Cluebag · Jul 12, 2009, 03:06 PM // 15:06

For me personally, I place a lot of weight on a couple of things when it comes to pretty much anything.

Working smarter, not harder
I have no problem putting in effort towards a goal. However, if to achieve said goal, it has to be in the dumbest, least efficient manner possible, I can tell you right now it's going to be a non-starter. If you are telling me that I need to move ten tons of fill dirt into my backyard, but you give me a teaspoon to move all that dirt, I'm going to politely tell you where you can shove that spoon sideways and will consider other options. I can get a wheelbarrow and shovel, I can buy some beer and another shovel and get a friend to help, I can hire some people to do this for me, or I could go and rent myself a bobcat and do it that way. And no, I'm not looking for an Ursan button, for those about to suggest that that's what I want.

As it is currently, we seem to have the teaspoon option, or if we're lucky, maybe the beer and friends option. (I suppose also the hiring people option (fame farming service) is available, as is the bobcat option (ebayed acct), however, those options are just icky imo and off the table, for me at least.) I congratulate those who had the tenacity to bang your heads against the wall and suffer thru pugs to achieve your rank, good for you. Not good for me, I'm not inclined to do something stupidly because "that's the way it's done." Not for me it's not. It's not done at all.

If the beer and friends option were somehow made to be less of a pitfa to actually accomplish, then I'd consider putting more effort towards some pvp goals. There have already been some suggestions as to how to accomplish this, hopefully Anet is seriously looking at options for this in gw2.

Return on investment
Like I mentioned above, I don't have a problem investing time and effort to achieve something. But as it's been pointed out by several previous posters, the time spent setting up a pug group only to have it fall apart or otherwise fail, one has to consider if this is a good use of their time. Is it a wise investment of my valueable liesure time to spend it on hour after hour after hour of frustration and pain with irritable shitheads? To what gain?

Well, I guess it'd help if I defined what I'd like for my roi. Maybe to not get roflstomped by r9 groups and instead be able to team up with similarly skilled players to fight similarly skilled players. Maybe to not spend a lot of time with our thumbs up our asses waiting for teammates to come along to round out the group and instead have a more efficient lfg/friendslist/networking system. I guess for me, my time is more valuable than the actual reward, so minimizing my time wasting is more important to me than shiny carrots and emotes and stuff. Emotes, meh, I'm indifferent towards. I can buy carrots, I can't buy time.

These two aspects play a big part in why I think many people stay away from pvp. It's not laziness or thin-skin or being a giant care bear that necessarily keeps people out of pvp (broken/stale meta's notwithstanding). Spending/wasting considerable amounts of my limited liesure time banging my head against the wall in an environment fraught with drama and frustration in pvp, well, it's not that difficult to see why people would alternately rather spend less time rolling their faces on their keyboards and winning in pve.

Rocky Raccoon · Jul 12, 2009, 03:47 PM // 15:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Professor K

It will be hilarious to see the same elitists on GW2 thinking they are better than everyone else on day one!

"Must have r8+ in GW1 to join"

This just made me laugh. I hope GW2 is really different as to make all start out equal in PvE and Pvp. If it has the same skill sets and setup as we have now the 2 communities will remain at war. If it is all new to everyone it will take a while to start the infighting again. I guess maybe the 2 just can't be bridged, hopefully a little more tolerance for each.

Burst Cancel · Jul 12, 2009, 04:23 PM // 16:23

As I've stated repeatedly in the past, the party system creates an artificial barrier to entry (artificial in the sense that the barrier has nothing to do with actually playing the game). Currently, it doesn't matter how good you, personally, are at the game if you can't find seven other people who are just as good or better.

Furthermore, PvP isn't for everyone to begin with. People like Bristlebane above wonder why PvP is so "serious", because apparently games should never be taken seriously. These people will never succeed in a competitive gaming environment, and PvP is inherently competitive. PvP is not, and never will be, for them.

Vel · Jul 12, 2009, 05:03 PM // 17:03

Bridging the great divide. PvE and PvP -- It is really only for those who would like to really bridge the gap. So, blaming the steep learning curve between RA and any sort of organized team based play, is not right. People who like to HA, will continue to like till they attain their goals. People who like to RA, will continue to RA and sport their mighty (pun intended) glad title regardless of what others think about it. I don't believe any action from ANET or handholding from others will be needed to bridge the gap.

So, to understand how to bridge the gap just ask the traditional 6 questions starting with the following:

Who…What…Where…When…Why…How…

1. Who will do it? You. No one else. Regardless of the number of friends you have today, it is ultimately you who will go through the process for yourself.

2. What will be needed to do it? Attitude and Patience. [A lot of patience needed to deal with kids on vent raging at every thing around them or the usual idiots (including you, no offense intended as the most times, it is you who is goofing up and not the other guy).]

3. Where will you start? Forums (team IQ was good place but, I don't believe it exists anymore) and then, focus one thing at a time. For example, try to understand how to select targets...who to go after and when...(see you are again faced with traditional 6 questions, its an iterative process).

4. When will you participate? Best time will be when most people from your geography is around. Gives you more productive hours through the No-Ops (if they still exist today).

5. Why is it important to do it? You will ask this yourself again and again as you go thru' the ranks whether it is RA, HA or GvG. Is it really worth it for me? Then you will go back to answering why to keep yourself engaged or to give up at some point. For some people, Tiger was the answer to their Why.

6. And lastly, How will you do it? How depends on what motivates you: is it the glory of holding halls or devastating the opponent guilds through your tactics or killing the random scrub trying heal sig under frenzy? So, you have to choose your own glory and decide on your path.

IMHO, ANET has provided more than one ways to enjoy PvP. But, it is us who kind of tore all the things down and made them look bad. Mostly the Playerbase is the enemy of its own and is the bane of good game-designs.

/antiflameshield ON

Ensign · Jul 12, 2009, 06:26 PM // 18:26

If PvE was actually hard you'd have the same 'rank discrimination' and 'elitism' in PvE that you have in higher levels of PvP; in fact, we started to see it at points in DoA, and everyone without titles or rank there complained about it as well.

People will always prefer experienced and talented players to inexperienced and talentless players on their teams on the whole; people just don't put a lot of effort into making the distinction when what you're doing is easy. Sure, it's discrimination, but it isn't remotely unfair. If you want established, better players to take you on their team, you need to demonstrate some capacity for contributing on their level.

The complaint should be that there isn't that low level, social PvP through which people can demonstrate ability; instead people are stuck trying to form rank 0 PUGs, which at this point is a futile exercise is rage. Most of those players are unranked for a reason, and it's a miserable slog to rank 3 trying to scrape out wins with those teams; it's gotten progressively worse as those teams relied on other teams like them to eke out their initial fame before, and as there are less of them they're increasingly fodder for everyone else. You really want something akin to AB or world PvP where people gain some measure of experience from which they can make the jump.

This goes for PvE as well; if you're going to include actually hard content you need to create systems and areas where people can demonstrate competence and make the social connections to get onto better teams if they are able.

Still Number One · Jul 12, 2009, 07:44 PM // 19:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

You really want something akin to AB or world PvP where people gain some measure of experience from which they can make the jump.

Honestly it would make the transition easier but it wouldn't solve the problem as to why people are not making the transition in the first place. It could increase the number of players slightly but High-end competitive PvP will always be an extremely small pool of players compared to the PvE portion of the game.

The problem isn't really even a problem to begin with. It is just more, unfortunate circumstance. High-end competitive PvP takes time and dedication. It takes the ability to set your real life schedule around the game so that you can coordinate a time where your team of 8 can play. It takes patience to know that you are going to suck and you are going to lose exponentially more than win when you first start off. You have to be able to tolerate losing. You have to have thick skin. You are going to get raged at for making mistakes. This is a competitive environment. People want to win. If you prevent winning from happening, you will hear about it and you will have to fix it.

There just aren't a lot of people who are willing to do what you have to do in order to be a competitive high-end PvPer. And the main reason is because there is no incentive right now. The only incentive is fun. To some of us, this is fun. We love competition. We love playing against the best, and being the best. We are competitive people. Others just aren't. If they still had real life prizes or free trips to places in the world like they used to, there would be another incentive for people to play and put up with those things. But those are gone and the people who played solely for those reasons are gone with them. And all we have left are people who are competitive by nature and find this area of play to be fun.

Charlotte the Harlot · Jul 12, 2009, 07:58 PM // 19:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by lutz

This is where your PvE friends come in. See, in PvE, you were supposed to get to know at least 8 people in that 100-man-guild of yours... and then make the journey to PvP.

People keep thinking that moving to PvP means leaving your PvE friends forever, when in fact, it's quite the opposite... you're supposed to start PvP with people you already know.

The problem is finding 7 other players of about your skill with the commitment needed to get anywhere in gvg that can play consistently at scheduled times. Even if someone were in one of these 100 man pve guilds it wouldnt be easy. I've played with plenty of rank 100/200ish guilds and even then its not easy to get a team together.

My original post was in response to what anet could do about gw2 by the way not about the other merged in topic.

Kashrlyyk · Jul 12, 2009, 08:23 PM // 20:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Apollo Smile

Its World vs World, not Guild vs Guild. A huge guild owning everyone would benefit EVERYONE in that world. It would encourage banding together and kicking ass, not hinder it.

GuildWiki: "It is intended to be a more relaxed bridging point between PvE and structured PvP."

I don´t see how that is fulfilled if the opponents are completly or in small groups on teamspeak, have complementing builds etc.... and you don´t.
This would be exactly like syncing in random arena. That is what I mean.

So either you are on teamspeak with all that mentioned above too, or you won´t have much fun.

Ec]-[oMaN · Jul 12, 2009, 08:37 PM // 20:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kashrlyyk

GuildWiki: "It is intended to be a more relaxed bridging point between PvE and structured PvP."

I don´t see how that is fulfilled if the opponents are completly or in small groups on teamspeak, have complementing builds etc.... and you don´t.
This would be exactly like syncing in random arena. That is what I mean.

So either you are on teamspeak with all that mentioned above too, or you won´t have much fun.

World PvP, form a group, amount of players in a group unknown at this time, go insta gib someone thats targeted out of hundreds, rinse repeat. It really aint fun, the fact even current or soon to be released MMo coming this Fall have done away with World open PvP settings and gone the instanced route says enough. I hope as another year passes GW2 will still implement structured PvP.